Ron Springett In The Net - Sheffield Wednesday

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Bradders23

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#1 23/07/2020 at 10:54

Just wanted your perspective on our defence, in particular the 2 goalies, plus Palmer/Iorfa/Lees/Borner. As a coach, once they've got into the regular habit of making stupid mistakes leading to goals, most likely as a result of losing concentration or just a lack of confidence, how easy or difficult is it to coach them back to the correct way of defending? What has to change to get them to defend as a unit again? The coach? The methods? The players? Does it need a steadying head like a Venancio of Hector to come in, calm them down and be a leader? On paper, one of Iorfa/Lees/Borner should be a leader and probably Iorfa is best suited but you just can't see it regularly. If you were the coach, what would you do with them?  

Of course there are cracks, that's how the light gets in. 

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bartos1976

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#2 23/07/2020 at 11:15

I know it's directed at an individual but my take for what it's worth is none of them talk to each other. Also the back line has been let down by our midfield for way too long, hot knife through butter 

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Bradders23

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#3 23/07/2020 at 11:25

I know it's directed at an individual but my take for what it's worth is none of them talk to each other. Also the back line has been let down by our midfield for way too long, hot knife through butter
bartos1976, 23/07/2020 at 11:15


I guess Bannan's Hollywood pass last night was a perfect example of that. 

Of course there are cracks, that's how the light gets in. 

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tylluan

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Sheffield Wednesday
#4 23/07/2020 at 13:48

Firstly a 3 man defence needs an anchor. A back four doesn’t need one so much as the middle two work with each other (I’ll take him, you drop, etc), then this ripples outward towards the full backs. But in a three there must be an organiser. An almost ever present. They don’t have to be the central pivot but it helps. He’s the conduit. Think if we’d have played a back 3 with Glenn Loovens. There’s your organiser, there’s your conduit. We don’t have one.
Because we don’t have one then the keeper should be barking. He can see everything. I used to coach keepers to be constantly talking to themselves as a match commentator because if you’re talking then you’re concentrating and you’re seeing the movement. Then you can organise. I’ve no idea if this is a standard practice but it works.

It takes a lot of time to get right. Conte, when at Chelsea, famously had his back line a fortnight before everyone else so he could go through the dynamics. Once he’d done that, he sent them off to start their general fitness routine then brought the midfield in and explained their role and so on with the forwards. Then it was easy to put the whole lot together on the pitch in pre season games.

So Monk unless Monk said day 1 after lockdown “this is how we’re going to play when we come back” and sent them a load of homework to do then we had very little time to prepare for the new way. Also, with the games coming thick and fast and players breaking down, we didn’t have a continuity in defence or midfield so the system started to unravel after his first choice group had to be replaced.

Lack of confidence leads to a lack of concentration. It’s ok training/coaching this at Middlewood because you’re up against your team mates. You know how they play. You can anticipate their movement. But then you come up against another team and it might not be the players you were expecting to face. It might not be your your normal defensive partner next to you and this can cause lack of confidence, in both you and those around you.

Out of the defenders we have, no one is a true leader. Lees is the captain but he’s not a vocal commander and organiser, in my eyes. Iorfa is too busy being Iorfa to worry about controlling anyone else (watch him in isolation and you’ll see that) Borner probably still has a language issue and I see him as the one who takes the instructions rather than give them. And of the others, including the ones that have come back off loan, I don’t see any of them stepping up for a permanent place in our back line.

So what would I do differently?
First thing is to go get a leader, an organiser. He doesn’t have to be the best defender but he has to be able to control and move Lees and Iorfa so they do a lot of the donkey work for him. Also another goalkeeper. The two that we’ve got aren’’t vocal enough until they’re berating the defence after a goal and you can’t suddenly start coaching that in to them if it’s not in their playing DNA. You need a talker. Someone who sees what your pivot might not. Your goalkeeper should also be almost like a sweeper in his thinking, if you’re playing a narrow central back 3.
Next would be schooling the two holding mids in how to be centre halves. If you do this then you can slightly tweak a back 3 to a way I prefer.

Instead of playing a central defensive three with two out lying wing backs, as such, I prefer to play two tucked in just in front of the back 3. This means that the left or right of the back 3 would go out wide when needed and one of the defensive 2 drops in to fill that gap. The wider two form part of a more forward midfield line, with a central attacking pivot, and drop into a flat midfield 4 when needed defensively. But it also means that we have an attacking middle closer to the front two and it makes for a more attacking 5, instead of an attacking 3 or 4.
I’ve found that this way means the whole team is covering 10-15 yards less when covering back to defend.

Here’s a link on a back 3 from the FA coaches association that was put together for A and B licence courses.
https://facc.thefa.com/Media/Default/News Article/Back%203%20and%20Back%204%20(Student%20Presentation).pdf

This is also a good youtube clip. Take a look at around the 2 min mark where it talks about a destructive player and a long range passer infront of the back 3 and that's how Monk has set up. Funny how it also shows how lopsided this can make the middle, which is how we've ended up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRXmjd95 cM  

Post edited on 23/07/2020 at 14:03 by tylluan

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TommyCraig6

First used 28/08/09
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#5 23/07/2020 at 15:02

Firstly a 3 man defence needs an anchor. A back four doesn’t need one so much as the middle two work with each other (I’ll take him, you drop, etc), then this ripples outward towards the full backs. But in a three there must be an organiser. An almost ever present. They don’t have to be the central pivot but it helps. He’s the conduit. Think if we’d have played a back 3 with Glenn Loovens. There’s your organiser, there’s your conduit. We don’t have one.
Because we don’t have one then the keeper should be barking. He can see everything. I used to coach keepers to be constantly talking to themselves as a match commentator because if you’re talking then you’re concentrating and you’re seeing the movement. Then you can organise. I’ve no idea if this is a standard practice but it works.

It takes a lot of time to get right. Conte, when at Chelsea, famously had his back line a fortnight before everyone else so he could go through the dynamics. Once he’d done that, he sent them off to start their general fitness routine then brought the midfield in and explained their role and so on with the forwards. Then it was easy to put the whole lot together on the pitch in pre season games.

So Monk unless Monk said day 1 after lockdown “this is how we’re going to play when we come back” and sent them a load of homework to do then we had very little time to prepare for the new way. Also, with the games coming thick and fast and players breaking down, we didn’t have a continuity in defence or midfield so the system started to unravel after his first choice group had to be replaced.

Lack of confidence leads to a lack of concentration. It’s ok training/coaching this at Middlewood because you’re up against your team mates. You know how they play. You can anticipate their movement. But then you come up against another team and it might not be the players you were expecting to face. It might not be your your normal defensive partner next to you and this can cause lack of confidence, in both you and those around you.

Out of the defenders we have, no one is a true leader. Lees is the captain but he’s not a vocal commander and organiser, in my eyes. Iorfa is too busy being Iorfa to worry about controlling anyone else (watch him in isolation and you’ll see that) Borner probably still has a language issue and I see him as the one who takes the instructions rather than give them. And of the others, including the ones that have come back off loan, I don’t see any of them stepping up for a permanent place in our back line.

So what would I do differently?
First thing is to go get a leader, an organiser. He doesn’t have to be the best defender but he has to be able to control and move Lees and Iorfa so they do a lot of the donkey work for him. Also another goalkeeper. The two that we’ve got aren’’t vocal enough until they’re berating the defence after a goal and you can’t suddenly start coaching that in to them if it’s not in their playing DNA. You need a talker. Someone who sees what your pivot might not. Your goalkeeper should also be almost like a sweeper in his thinking, if you’re playing a narrow central back 3.
Next would be schooling the two holding mids in how to be centre halves. If you do this then you can slightly tweak a back 3 to a way I prefer.

Instead of playing a central defensive three with two out lying wing backs, as such, I prefer to play two tucked in just in front of the back 3. This means that the left or right of the back 3 would go out wide when needed and one of the defensive 2 drops in to fill that gap. The wider two form part of a more forward midfield line, with a central attacking pivot, and drop into a flat midfield 4 when needed defensively. But it also means that we have an attacking middle closer to the front two and it makes for a more attacking 5, instead of an attacking 3 or 4.
I’ve found that this way means the whole team is covering 10-15 yards less when covering back to defend.

Here’s a link on a back 3 from the FA coaches association that was put together for A and B licence courses.
https://facc.thefa.com/Media/Default/News Article/Back%203%20and%20Back%204%20(Student%20Presentation).pdf

This is also a good youtube clip. Take a look at around the 2 min mark where it talks about a destructive player and a long range passer infront of the back 3 and that's how Monk has set up. Funny how it also shows how lopsided this can make the middle, which is how we've ended up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRXmjd95 cM
tylluan, 23/07/2020 at 13:48


Interesting reading Ty but this is my take. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. You can have the best coach in the game but if your players don't have the basic skills I'm afraid you are struggling. When I watch Premier League I see instant control, movement off the ball, ability to make a 40 yard pass, being able to cross a ball. I think I've mentioned this before Ty. Watch our players at a throw in. No movement towards ball whatsoever so it's down the line and hope for best. Is it called the percentage game? I admit, confidence plays a part and we have seen how players hide and want to get rid as soon as they get the ball. Pelupessy's stats will look good because his passes are either sideways or backwards. When does he ever burst forward and when did he make a 40 yard pass? Bannan is the only one who goes looking and his awful mistake last night stood out like a sore thumb.

In a nutshell, what I'm saying is that these players are not good enough for the Championship. You can't educate Pork!  

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TommyCraig6

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#6 23/07/2020 at 15:05

I will say, however, that I was impressed with Shaw. I was surprised he went off. He won the physical battles where Hunt wouldn't. He may be a prospect but he has to have better players around him or he will go backwards.  

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TommyCraig6

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#7 23/07/2020 at 15:08

I've never been a Fletcher fan but without him we'd have been relegated weeks ago. I keep asking myself how have we got 56 points after witnessing these last few games.  

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bartos1976

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#8 23/07/2020 at 15:34

I will say, however, that I was impressed with Shaw. I was surprised he went off. He won the physical battles where Hunt wouldn't. He may be a prospect but he has to have better players around him or he will go backwards.
TommyCraig6, 23/07/2020 at 15:05


Weird how we see things differently but I though McNair gave him a difficult evenings work  

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Bradders23

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#9 23/07/2020 at 15:44



Weird how we see things differently but I though McNair gave him a difficult evenings work
bartos1976, 23/07/2020 at 15:34


McNair definitely foxed him when he let the ball run and took the shot which hit the post, and he also eased him off the ball a bit later, he just had more strength and nous. But ultimately I thought Shaw did ok, did the simple stuff well, was mobile and kept the ball moving well. He (like Hunt) needs more body strength to succeed at this level but the lad can play a bit.  

Of course there are cracks, that's how the light gets in. 

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Bradders23

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First used 17/08/09
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#10 23/07/2020 at 16:44

Firstly a 3 man defence needs an anchor. A back four doesn’t need one so much as the middle two work with each other (I’ll take him, you drop, etc), then this ripples outward towards the full backs. But in a three there must be an organiser. An almost ever present. They don’t have to be the central pivot but it helps. He’s the conduit. Think if we’d have played a back 3 with Glenn Loovens. There’s your organiser, there’s your conduit. We don’t have one.
Because we don’t have one then the keeper should be barking. He can see everything. I used to coach keepers to be constantly talking to themselves as a match commentator because if you’re talking then you’re concentrating and you’re seeing the movement. Then you can organise. I’ve no idea if this is a standard practice but it works.

It takes a lot of time to get right. Conte, when at Chelsea, famously had his back line a fortnight before everyone else so he could go through the dynamics. Once he’d done that, he sent them off to start their general fitness routine then brought the midfield in and explained their role and so on with the forwards. Then it was easy to put the whole lot together on the pitch in pre season games.

So Monk unless Monk said day 1 after lockdown “this is how we’re going to play when we come back” and sent them a load of homework to do then we had very little time to prepare for the new way. Also, with the games coming thick and fast and players breaking down, we didn’t have a continuity in defence or midfield so the system started to unravel after his first choice group had to be replaced.

Lack of confidence leads to a lack of concentration. It’s ok training/coaching this at Middlewood because you’re up against your team mates. You know how they play. You can anticipate their movement. But then you come up against another team and it might not be the players you were expecting to face. It might not be your your normal defensive partner next to you and this can cause lack of confidence, in both you and those around you.

Out of the defenders we have, no one is a true leader. Lees is the captain but he’s not a vocal commander and organiser, in my eyes. Iorfa is too busy being Iorfa to worry about controlling anyone else (watch him in isolation and you’ll see that) Borner probably still has a language issue and I see him as the one who takes the instructions rather than give them. And of the others, including the ones that have come back off loan, I don’t see any of them stepping up for a permanent place in our back line.

So what would I do differently?
First thing is to go get a leader, an organiser. He doesn’t have to be the best defender but he has to be able to control and move Lees and Iorfa so they do a lot of the donkey work for him. Also another goalkeeper. The two that we’ve got aren’’t vocal enough until they’re berating the defence after a goal and you can’t suddenly start coaching that in to them if it’s not in their playing DNA. You need a talker. Someone who sees what your pivot might not. Your goalkeeper should also be almost like a sweeper in his thinking, if you’re playing a narrow central back 3.
Next would be schooling the two holding mids in how to be centre halves. If you do this then you can slightly tweak a back 3 to a way I prefer.

Instead of playing a central defensive three with two out lying wing backs, as such, I prefer to play two tucked in just in front of the back 3. This means that the left or right of the back 3 would go out wide when needed and one of the defensive 2 drops in to fill that gap. The wider two form part of a more forward midfield line, with a central attacking pivot, and drop into a flat midfield 4 when needed defensively. But it also means that we have an attacking middle closer to the front two and it makes for a more attacking 5, instead of an attacking 3 or 4.
I’ve found that this way means the whole team is covering 10-15 yards less when covering back to defend.

Here’s a link on a back 3 from the FA coaches association that was put together for A and B licence courses.
https://facc.thefa.com/Media/Default/News Article/Back%203%20and%20Back%204%20(Student%20Presentation).pdf

This is also a good youtube clip. Take a look at around the 2 min mark where it talks about a destructive player and a long range passer infront of the back 3 and that's how Monk has set up. Funny how it also shows how lopsided this can make the middle, which is how we've ended up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRXmjd95 cM
tylluan, 23/07/2020 at 13:48


Thanks for that Tylluan - really detailed as always and impossible to disagree with your view given your knowledge. I couldn't get the FA video to open but the YouTube does show why we get overloaded. So basically we need a leader, definitely a new GK and Monk to have a better understanding of the system he's trying to play and to spend more time drilling the routines into the players. I'm not confident that any of those things is going to happen.

Of course there are cracks, that's how the light gets in. 

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Reesh1867

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First used 05/08/09

Sheffield Wednesday
#11 23/07/2020 at 16:46

A new manager would help.  

Consilio et Animis 

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tylluan

First used 09/08/09
4405 posts

Sheffield Wednesday
#12 23/07/2020 at 17:46



Thanks for that Tylluan - really detailed as always and impossible to disagree with your view given your knowledge. I couldn't get the FA video to open but the YouTube does show why we get overloaded. So basically we need a leader, definitely a new GK and Monk to have a better understanding of the system he's trying to play and to spend more time drilling the routines into the players. I'm not confident that any of those things is going to happen.

Bradders23, 23/07/2020 at 16:44


The FA link was a pdf.

Google facc defending with a back three
It should be the first link that comes up from fa.com 

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Bradders23

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First used 17/08/09
4142 posts

#13 23/07/2020 at 18:34



The FA link was a pdf.

Google facc defending with a back three
It should be the first link that comes up from fa.com
tylluan, 23/07/2020 at 17:46


Is it different to "fuck defending with a back three?" - Cos I think that's the PDF that Monk viewed. 

Of course there are cracks, that's how the light gets in. 

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WednesdaysChild

First used 26/01/19
475 posts

#14 23/07/2020 at 18:43

I will say, however, that I was impressed with Shaw. I was surprised he went off. He won the physical battles where Hunt wouldn't. He may be a prospect but he has to have better players around him or he will go backwards.
TommyCraig6, 23/07/2020 at 15:05



I agree. 

I'll never buy from AXA again! 

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WednesdaysChild

First used 26/01/19
475 posts

#15 23/07/2020 at 18:44

I've never been a Fletcher fan but without him we'd have been relegated weeks ago. I keep asking myself how have we got 56 points after witnessing these last few games.
TommyCraig6, 23/07/2020 at 15:08


Fletcher was grossly underrated compare him to Whickham,No contest. 

I'll never buy from AXA again! 

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