Dirty Leeds Scum at home match thread.....

[TheExile]

Whilst the tactical analysis is really interesting and tbh over my head most of the time. I think what we are doing at the moment just seems over complicated. Perhaps a presence doing things right on the edge of our own D and a more physical presence up front brings us into games but tbh at the end of last season i felt the 343 was working well for us, made sense and was innovative yet reasonably simple as it played to our strengths and that profile of the squad remains. It wasn’t broken at the end of last season and we had playoff form.

If we had a back 3 (hopefully we get another cb) with Iorfa Ihiekwe and Bernard with a couple of athletic midfield players, the two wing backs and then whoever we want to play in the attacking three from musaba, Windass, Ugbo, lowe, Gassama et al. keep them higher up the pitch rather than pinned back.

The elephant in the room this season will be Bannan and whether he should now just be coming on to help like he did vs Hull once the game is in a certain point. I think ingelson has the potential to cut it in the middle but if we only play 2 CMs then we are already creating an issue by needing to find a home for certain players

[KrolMong]

1 hour ago, Andyben said:

Probably the best individual performance this season (I know...) was Ingelsson against Plymouth playing exactly as he has done in each game since.

He showed more in that game than any other midfield performance in the past three seasons. Bar none. 

Are you saying he should adapt or restrict  his positive forward thinking game to accommodate Bannan? 

Is it possible that we should instead play t Ingelsson's strengths and not persist with the  failed experiment on Bannan in a two?

The issue is that in a midfield two, you have to play two ways. It’s not about accommodating Bannan, it’s about understanding that when you are under pressure you have to do that job facing your own goal and do the nasty graft. If you watched Sunderland last week, they weren’t trying to run off Bannans shoulder, they were trying to run off Ingelssons. The same last night, they really fancied it against Ingelsson. His danger radar is not the same as other players as he’s played higher up the pitch throughout his career.

The issue we have is that we are playing a pair of attacking midfield players in sitting positions. Bannan has a much better understanding of this than Ingelsson does and even then he’s not the right person as he doesn’t have the physical presence.

What is actually needed is a change of shape against good teams. You don’t need a two, we can play a three and push Bannan and Ingelsson left and right. If we are going to play a two, I’d even counter that neither of them can play there away from home.

Ingelsson will learn. But, for the time being, we can’t accommodate him unless there is a proper stopper alongside him and Bannan.

A ex pro who I know made a good comment last night. If Ingelsson is not able to get forward, what does he bring? To get around that, you either play him higher up the pitch, or you don’t play him or Bannan and go with Chalobah and Charles. As a general note, in a 4-2-3-1, the top teams will play two destroyers, but one of them has to be able to talk the ball under pressure.

[Hirstys 12th Pint]

Thought Bannan was great against Plymouth but last night chasing shadows.  

I had backed him to make 2 or more fouls but unfortunately could not get within 4 foot of them.

[Tylluan]

16 minutes ago, KrolMong said:

go with Chalobah and Charles. As a general note, in a 4-2-3-1, the top teams will play two destroyers, but one of them has to be able to talk the ball under pressure.

This all day long. In order for Rohl to play his press we have to be competitive in front of the back four so the full backs can push on with a certain degree of security. 

Then Ingelsson, Bannan, and Windass can fight it out for the middle spot in the 3 in front of them

Edited August 24 by Tylluan

[KrolMong]

11 hours ago, Tylluan said:

@KrolMong do you think bringing the players in will just reinforce Rohl's belief in his system and create a reluctance to deviate?

I think the last two games have shown that, even with reinforcements, we don't have the calibre of players to hold 2 in midfield if one is going to be the creative. You can't play out from the keeper unless you hold the middle and we can't do that. 

For me Rohl has to bend on his beliefs. He's an analyst but it seems he's ditched that side of him and concentrated on how we can hurt the opposition instead of looking at how they could hurt us and picking the team accordingly. The last two games show it's not worked. 

Ugbo has joined to play football and I could see him forming a 2 with Lowe but Rohl is only playing 1 up front so what happens when Ugbo is fit enough to start or O'Mahoney signs (who'll also want to play)

We need to be more interchangeable. We need to be able to stifle teams by breaking them down like has happened to us and if that means starting with a back 5 at home and grinding a point out then so be it. But then we need to move to 4-2-3-1 but with two defensive midfielders sitting and not one being a deep lying QB. Some games will accommodate 4-2-2-2 or 4-1-3-2 but we need to start adapting like this and not stick rigidly to one formation and one belief. 

What is very clear is that he’s hung his hat on that front four and he wants to launch the full backs. Crazy as it sounds, at times we are lined up with a 3-1-6 formation which, when it breaks down, exposes us.

What I was expecting was shape fluidity. So the ability to switch between systems in game. As an example, go to a 3-4-3, or a 4-4-2 and even switch to a 5-3-2 or a 5-2-3. The fact that Chalobah is injured has probably hurt that. But I do see scenarios where we will play two destroyers in a two when they are fit.

One thing I don’t like. Ugbo as a 10. Doesn’t work. I have no issue with him playing wide in a front three, or down the middle. And I would like to see us go with 3 strikers in a 5-2-3/4-3-3.

I think that we need to see what Rohl does with the incomings over the next week which will give us an understanding on what shapes he might want to switch too.

[KrolMong]

1 minute ago, Tylluan said:

This all day long. In order for Rohl to play his press we have to be competitive in front of the back four so the full backs can push on with a certain degree of security. 

What I like about Chalobah is that he can slot in if we launch the full backs. Bannan and Ingelsson cannot.

[mkowl]

Basically it's all this bollocks about a defender, whether full back or centre half dropping into midfield.

Just play a fucking midfielder

Pep has a lot to answer for

[TheExile]

24 minutes ago, Bellsview said:

Still fuming about last night. I don’t give a fuck what Leeds’ budget is or what wages they pay, they shouldn’t have strolled through our midfield or taken the piss as easily as they did.

It was an absolute embarrassment of a performance and I will admit it’s because we lost to them why I’m extra pissed off. I absolutely despise them! 

Those who’ve had a go at my posts about this, well, I’ll be reading what you have to say with interest if the pigs do to us what Leeds did last night. I doubt you’ll be so forgiving. I know I won’t be.

 

Dreading a game at S2 if we try and play like we have done 

[Andyben]

38 minutes ago, Bellsview said:

Still fuming about last night. I don’t give a fuck what Leeds’ budget is or what wages they pay, they shouldn’t have strolled through our midfield or taken the piss as easily as they did.

It was an absolute embarrassment of a performance and I will admit it’s because we lost to them why I’m extra pissed off. I absolutely despise them! 

Those who’ve had a go at my posts about this, well, I’ll be reading what you have to say with interest if the pigs do to us what Leeds did last night. I doubt you’ll be so forgiving. I know I won’t be.

 

No I'd be more so because demblades are our only real rival. Losing to Leeds or beating them, is just the same as Grimsby, WBA, or West Ham for me.

The manner in which we lose is what riles me, not who to (apart from demblades)

[Teddy Nickelarse]

11 hours ago, Billysboy said:

3 games mate, THREE, enjoy the season.

100%

[Teddy Nickelarse]

3 hours ago, mkowl said:

Some interesting comments. Rohl clearly has a game plan and in many ways it is refreshing he wants to take games to the opposition. But we are not at stage where we can impose that style. So yes play from the back, do the high press etc etc is great in theory but the last 2 games have shown we are not as good as the opposition doing the same 

Perhaps for half the teams in this division it will make us competitive enough.

 

 

Balanced view. Pre-season I looked at the fixtures and thought ,Plymouth apart, that we had a really tough start. Leeds looked class last night, individually and as a unit. My main gripe was that it was a game that called for a stiffening of the midfield. Looking at short video clips of Shea Charles, he looks like exactly the type of player we are crying out for - fingers crossed we get the loan done.

There's nearly always post match overreaction both good and bad. To early to be stamping feet IMO.

[DirtyOwl]

When we got hammered by Ipswich last season I felt as though Rohl was using the game as a “free hit” to some extent. See how we match up against the better teams and how far we are off using his preferred system. 
 

Could it be a similar thing against Sunderland & last night? I could be totally full of shit but just a thought. 

[owl71]

It’s amazing how many different ways people can say basically the same thing.  The balance of the midfield isn’t right against strong opposition.  With Chalaboah available, and hopefully a new signing (Shea Charles on a season long loan sounds perfect), we should see something slightly different.  

[Teddy Nickelarse]

8 minutes ago, owl71 said:

It’s amazing how many different ways people can say basically the same thing.  The balance of the midfield isn’t right against strong opposition.  ........

So true and you reinforce it with another! 😀

[OptimisticOwl]

It might take an injury to Bannan to force DR into changing things in midfield, as he still appears to be undroppable.

Overall, I think we have to remember the number of new players we have (and hopefully more to come) and accept that it takes time to gel. I think we'll see things progress as the season goes on and everyone gets to know their roles.

[bradowl]

Very disappointed with last night's result, I thought we matched them for first 25 minutes but ended up being well beaten in end. 

Every time they won ball off us they had options on and broke forward very quickly, when we won ball they seemed to be little on and we ended up losing it. 

We desperately need to pick up some points in next couple of games. 

[Owling_Wolf]

4 hours ago, mkowl said:

The issue is just playing the 2 of them in there. Meaning they are doing the job of the other midfielder that should be in there.

 

That's important but there's another huge element to it also. Ingelsson seems to have been instructed to go box to  box: to have a real roving brief. Obviously it suits him BUT it doesn't suit our team when we only have two in central midfield.  (We can't count Windass: he's an attacker so we're basically playing 4-2-4.)  

What we've seen, against Sunderland but especially and repeatedly last night, is that when the opposition win the ball and break we have only Bannan in central midfield, against two or three opponents going down the centre of the pitch: often with Ingelsson upfield.  

Sunderland killed us with neat passing football, L**ds with really fast runners and an accurate through ball, but the one thing common was the one man in centre midfield factor.  This also made a shambles of our defence, who were forced to try and cover across.  

Looking forwards, even if we bring in a good quality defensive midfielder, I can't see how we can play the way we're trying to - certainly not against the better teams.  To bring in the lad Charles, who drops out?  Ingelsson or Windass?  Or do we abandon playing two wingers? (Which we have four of, counting Valentin.)   Yes, they're an important aspect of our attack, but also of us giving the ball away, especially Moussaba on current form: running up blind alleys until outnumbered.  

As a mate was arguing last night: start games more cautiously against the stronger opponents: Something more like a 4-4-2.  Especially don't go gung ho when they've got pace like they had last night.  Eventually that lost us the game.

Edited August 24 by Owling_Wolf

[80s Owl]

1 hour ago, bradowl said:

Very disappointed with last night's result, I thought we matched them for first 25 minutes but ended up being well beaten in end. 

Every time they won ball off us they had options on and broke forward very quickly, when we won ball they seemed to be little on and we ended up losing it. 

We desperately need to pick up some points in next couple of games. 

The first 25 we were definitely in it, then they had that spell when we could hardly get the ball off them and it was painful to watch, we might have had more chance of making a game of it 2nd half had we not conceded so early for the second week running.

I'm not too despondant yet, just look at Carlos's first few games and we finished that season at Wembley.

 

[Andyben]

9 minutes ago, 80s Owl said:

I'm not too despondant yet, just look at Carlos's first few games and we finished that season at Wembley.

 

Delete this before @mkowlgets ba k from Waitrose please

[mkowl]

14 minutes ago, Andyben said:

Delete this before @mkowlgets ba k from Waitrose please

The staff do the shopping 

[holmesfield_owl]

Don't know if it's been mentioned but thought the Chansiri 'sponsor' on the shirt looked quite tasteful and not overbearing.

[Owling_Wolf]

1 hour ago, holmesfield_owl said:

Don't know if it's been mentioned but thought the Chansiri 'sponsor' on the shirt looked quite tasteful and not overbearing.

Didn't even see it from row 36!

[fOWLmouth]

4 hours ago, OptimisticOwl said:

It might take an injury to Bannan to force DR into changing things in midfield, as he still appears to be undroppable.

He was down for a while in front of the North stand near the end of the match,holding his knee.

I’m almost ashamed to say that I was hoping he might miss a few games so we could find out how we will manage without him.The last time he missed matches through injury I seem to recall we did okay.But I may be wrong,I usually am.Either way, the time will come when he is replaced.

[Reesh]

31 minutes ago, fOWLmouth said:

He was down for a while in front of the North stand near the end of the match,holding his knee.

I’m almost ashamed to say that I was hoping he might miss a few games so we could find out how we will manage without him.The last time he missed matches through injury I seem to recall we did okay.But I may be wrong,I usually am.Either way, the time will come when he is replaced.

Wasn't he out for a few weeks in League One and we won all the games.

[Tewksbury]

11 minutes ago, Reesh said:

Wasn't he out for a few weeks in League One and we won all the games.

In the second season, we had exactly the same PPG without him as with him.

The only game I remember he missed in the first season was the 2-1 win v Wigan.

[Andyben]

1 hour ago, Tewksbury said:

In the second season, we had exactly the same PPG without him as with him.

Bollocks.

He missed three consecutive games injured and we win all three to nil.

Four games in total that season injured and we won 3 drew 1 (0-0 Oxford)which is 2.5ppg or 115 points over the season.

And a GD of +81....😂 

https://www.transfermarkt.com/barry-bannan/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/61561/plus/0?saison=2022&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=

 

Edited August 24 by Andyben

[Andyben]

1 hour ago, Tewksbury said:

The only game I remember he missed in the first season was the 2-1 win v Wigan.

Didn't miss. Was on the bench 

[Tewksbury]

6 minutes ago, Andyben said:

Bollocks.

He missed three consecutive games injured and we win all three to nil.

Four games in total that season injured and we won 3 drew 1 (0-0 Oxford)which is 2.5ppg or 115 points over the season.

And a GD of +81....😂 

https://www.transfermarkt.com/barry-bannan/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/61561/plus/0?saison=2022&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=

 

I'm not at home now, I'll look it up when I get back. It may have been on minutes played, so >45 v <45.

May have been complete bollocks and my head's packed in again.

I did it for every player, only remembered it as him and Vaulks came out at exactly the same PPG in and out so it stuck.

[Billysboy]

11 hours ago, Bellsview said:

Still fuming about last night. I don’t give a fuck what Leeds’ budget is or what wages they pay, they shouldn’t have strolled through our midfield or taken the piss as easily as they did.

It was an absolute embarrassment of a performance and I will admit it’s because we lost to them why I’m extra pissed off. I absolutely despise them! 

Those who’ve had a go at my posts about this, well, I’ll be reading what you have to say with interest if the pigs do to us what Leeds did last night. I doubt you’ll be so forgiving. I know I won’t be.

 

Your hatred of Leeds is your issue, if we had been outplayed by West Brom I'd  have felt no different, beat by a better side. If the the pigs outplayed us like that think I'd stay in bed for a week.

[Tank_Owl2,0]

5 hours ago, Owling_Wolf said:

Didn't even see it from row 36!

Same. It looks ok. I wonder if DC wanted it to be a bit understated?

[Otto_Man]

Whilst it's always disappointing to lose (and taking the fact it was Leeds out of the equation) we were beaten by the better side. The first goal was a beauty (God of hurt saying that) and for the second, James is premier League class. The timing was dreadful mind. 

Not much to add to the Bannan debate, his performance was epitomised by 2 moments in the second half. The first was a cross that couldn't even beat the first man when Musaba had done all the hard work and made time and space for him to pick out the perfect delivery. The second was his inability to even work the keeper with his shot from just outside the box, again when he had plenty of time to line up his shot. 

If he loved the club as much as he claims to, he'd do the right thing (i.e. a Chris Marsden)

Edited August 24 by Otto_Man

[fOWLmouth]

39 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

The second was his inability to even work the keeper with his shot from just outside the box, again when he had plenty of time to line up his shot. 

 

Sadly,i wasn’t expecting any other outcome.

[Harry Lime]

Well it's quite evident that Bannan is brilliant when playing against the poorer sides but struggles against the better ones. It's a transitional time for him and Palmer this season but we need to learn to live without him and Palmer. Someone said earlier that no other midfielder has a decent game when Bannan is playing and that is really difficult to argue agains, I think he can be overbearing and restrict them.

[TheExile]

Bannan is still useful in certain situation as I don’t think many of the side have a creative streak in them and he’s one of the few who can keep the ball as was evident v Hull. Calmed the game down completely. In some games he will still look like one of our better players.
 

It’s just the idea of him in a 2 or if we do need to play a 2 he can’t be first choice or you might bring him on later in a game if needed. Him, Johnson and Palmer plus the likes of Vaulks and Windass were a core group of players who were very driven and determined last season. Even if some of the other players come in who are better, that needs to be a steady transition to try and retain some of the qualities which to be fair have achieved the impossible at the end of the last two seasons. I’d have not kept Vaulks on a 3 year deal but by the same token someone doing that simple ugly job in his part of the pitch is something we now miss. 

[Chelters]

Bannan still has a part to play but he can’t be an automatic first choice all the time anymore. Certainly against a team like Leeds he can’t be in a 2, particularly with a fairly attack minded player next to him.

If we had a CDM on Friday and Bannan played as a 10 instead of Windass he would have looked better. 

On Musaba, he reminds me a bit of early Chris Brunt. Got all the attributes but needs time to learn how to use them and mature between the ears. Another one who I don’t think should be an automatic choice.

[Owling_Wolf]

21 minutes ago, Chelters said:

Bannan still has a part to play but he can’t be an automatic first choice all the time anymore. Certainly against a team like Leeds he can’t be in a 2, particularly with a fairly attack minded player next to him.

If we had a CDM on Friday and Bannan played as a 10 instead of Windass he would have looked better. 

On Musaba, he reminds me a bit of early Chris Brunt. Got all the attributes but needs time to learn how to use them and mature between the ears. Another one who I don’t think should be an automatic choice.

Just off the top I think Brunty was 18-ish when we signed him and Mussaba's about 25.  And Brunty was Lg1 at first.  

[TheExile]

Last season Windass was identified as being crucial as the link between midfield and attack. Whereas now with the fluidity with all three of Bannan Windass and Ingelsson doing a bit of everything we have struggled to feed the ball in whilst also looking a bit lightweight or just a second or two slow in implementing what might work. If it doesn’t click soon I just hope we go back to something with a recognisable structure whilst still relatively innovative in terms of the press and formation ie last seasons approach. It wasn’t broken was it. 
 

Even in the Carlos era when Bannan was fresh out of the premier league and in his mid 20s we didn’t dare put Bannan in a 2 man midfield. Then Moore also realised the glaring weakness at level below.

[Wor-Jackie]

2 hours ago, Owling_Wolf said:

Just off the top I think Brunty was 18-ish when we signed him and Mussaba's about 25.  And Brunty was Lg1 at first.  

Musaba is 23 and just started his 2nd season in a new country.

[Reesh]

On 24/08/2024 at 10:33, Bellsview said:

Still fuming about last night. I don’t give a fuck what Leeds’ budget is or what wages they pay, they shouldn’t have strolled through our midfield or taken the piss as easily as they did.

It was an absolute embarrassment of a performance and I will admit it’s because we lost to them why I’m extra pissed off. I absolutely despise them! 

Those who’ve had a go at my posts about this, well, I’ll be reading what you have to say with interest if the pigs do to us what Leeds did last night. I doubt you’ll be so forgiving. I know I won’t be.

 

😭😭😭