Unconscious bias

[fOWLmouth]

It’s over 35 years since the semi-final that still causes emotions to run high.I typed Hillsborough on Google and the first thing that popped up was the disaster, and a lot of people have grown up with total negativity about our club in that time.

Some of our supporters believe the football establishment are determined we won’t progress beyond our current level because of that day.I don’t think it would be possible to keep that level of corruption quiet with the amount of officials needed to carry it out.

What I do believe is there could be an element of unconscious bias.I think the amount of bad publicity we have received for years could permeate into some people’s minds,including referees who are no different from members of the public.It could be the difference between a 50-50 decision going against us instead of in our favour.If all you hear is negativity,eventually you may believe it to the point where it affects your judgement.

Does anyone agree,or am I being paranoid?

 

[Theman]

There is a lot for the conspiracy theorists to go at, but I’d agree there does seem to be a growing perception of bias, how can a team go a whole season without getting a penalty? 

[HoylandOwl]

I put it more down to inept officials than anything else

[Andyben]

5 minutes ago, HoylandOwl said:

I put it more down to inept officials than anything else

But the inept officials mange to give penalties against us.

Windass should have had one in first half when taken out by Monger and a other for the high boot in th second.

But the one against Dishon was deserved 

[fOWLmouth]

1 minute ago, HoylandOwl said:

I put it more down to inept officials than anything else

If that were the case,wouldn’t it average out over time?Perhaps it does work in our favour and some of us don’t see it because of our own bias.

[JBO]

This is the sort of shite Warnock and Wilder come out with 

[Harry Lime]

I'd hope the refs aren't biased and I don't think they are, not for the disaster reason anyway, they surely can't be all Liverpool supporters can they.

I think some of them are just crap and they're heads are stuck up there own arses, but who knows.

They do appear to succumb to home crowd pressure at times when we're away, but never when we're at home but maybe my perception is wrong, it just appears to me that the more outraged the crowd is at Hillsborough the ref gets worse.

[fOWLmouth]

I’m not saying that all referees are Liverpool supporters. The point I’m trying to make is people are influenced without realising it in all kinds of scenarios.

[fOWLmouth]

31 minutes ago, JBO said:

This is the sort of shite Warnock and Wilder come out with 

It could well be shite,if it is then we’re very unlucky with the referees we have to endure.Or perhaps the evidence is anecdotal and we just think the refs are poor with no facts to support the claim.If the referees are really bad,again I ask wouldn’t it average out over time?

[Jim]

55 minutes ago, HoylandOwl said:

I put it more down to inept officials than anything else

That's not how you spell bent c+nts

[holmesfield_owl]

Anyone who was at Wednesday v villa few seasons back cannot not tell me that referee was not either 1. A cheat/corrupt or 2. Had bets on it

[Reesh]

Just now, holmesfield_owl said:

Anyone who was at Wednesday v villa few seasons back cannot not tell me that referee was not either 1. A cheat/corrupt or 2. Had bets on it

Neil Swarbrick wasn't it?

[holmesfield_owl]

2 minutes ago, Reesh said:

Neil Swarbrick wasn't it?

Rings a bell, was so blatant that the fact he was sanctioned convinced me there's an agenda against our club

[pook]

If referees were bent, they'd be effing daft to work against the same club over and over again.  

[Reesh]

7 minutes ago, holmesfield_owl said:

Rings a bell, was so blatant that the fact he was sanctioned convinced me there's an agenda against our club

He wasnt sanctioned.

 

He gave us 1 free kick all game.....

[Andyben]

Look at what PGMOL released to try and justify the wrong offside call by VAR in the Leicester (?) game this midweek.

They used a frame taken slightly after the cross when the defender had raised his leg to block it which shifted the offside line.

Bent as fuck 

[Reesh]

45 minutes ago, Andyben said:

Look at what PGMOL released to try and justify the wrong offside call by VAR in the Leicester (?) game this midweek.

They used a frame taken slightly after the cross when the defender had raised his leg to block it which shifted the offside line.

Bent as fuck 

Funny how PGMOL have no accessible email address for complaints and that they are run by an ex copper Rotherham fan....

 

****.

[holmesfield_owl]

2 hours ago, Reesh said:

He wasnt sanctioned.

 

He gave us 1 free kick all game.....

I typed wasn't sanctioned and it auto corrected it

[owl71]

The topic title is “unconscious bias“.  That is not the same thing as a conspiracy theory.  
 

To be honest, yes, there may be something in this.  The amount of bad publicity Wednesday have had in the last 12 years since the Hillsborough official documents were released early…I think it has had some impact on officiating.  It’s the drip, drip, drip of another legal development, another view of the Leppings Lane end on the 6 o’clock news.  Doesn’t help in creating a positive image.

[Chelters]

See my post on the other thread. I think it’s more to do with us generally not having an intimidating team or home ground and refs being mentally weak. 

[mkowl]

The unconscious bias will be cited by other clubs, the fact Wolves raised the vote on the use of VAR arose because of that belief.

Yesterday was more that the ref had taken a lot of flack in the first half from the home fans. I nervously laughed at the time because you sort of knew what was coming, it did.

The one last week annoyed me more because they seemed to enjoy the jeopardy of the situation. Like when it say a min of 5 minutes injury time and there is a corner at 5.04. They let the corner happen

[mkowl]

Just now, Chelters said:

See my post on the other thread. I think it’s more to do with us generally not having an intimidating team or home ground and refs being mentally weak. 

I did knowingly laugh at your lino story. I was once thrust into a similar scenario, though ill prepared with trainers and a muddy touchline. Taking great pleasure flagging a tight offside in our favour to wind up the twat behind me. And I wasn't averse to chipping away at the lino in other games, being the twat behind.

At Hillsborough we are either too passive or if we do get riled they seem to revel in stirring it more

 

[Chelters]

3 minutes ago, mkowl said:

I did knowingly laugh at your lino story. I was once thrust into a similar scenario, though ill prepared with trainers and a muddy touchline. Taking great pleasure flagging a tight offside in our favour to wind up the twat behind me. And I wasn't averse to chipping away at the lino in other games, being the twat behind.

At Hillsborough we are either too passive or if we do get riled they seem to revel in stirring it more

 

Unfortunately too many turn on the team quickly and let the ref get away with it. Understandable after quarter of a century of crap but it’s all part of the equation.

Edited September 22 by Chelters

[mkowl]

Whilst the lack of a penalty decision for 62 games is a lot, I will say that for a lot of the games the fact we barely got the ball into the opposition half never mind the area explains a good chunk of it. 

So if you aren't running at pace at defenders, aren't creating the scrambles, are piss poor at free kicks and corners I.e. all the scenarios that cause penalties to be given, then you won't get penalties.

Ok there have been some incidents where penalties could have been given, I haven't kept count but half a dozen at best ?

[mkowl]

6 minutes ago, Chelters said:

Unfortunately too many turn on the team quickly and let the ref get away with it. Understandable after quarter of a century of crap but it’s all part of the equation.

True - when we do create an all for one atmosphere, eg the Peterborough game it has a positive impact, we even got a penalty though if that had not been given I would be going full on David Icke

But it's a rare occurrence 

[Tylluan]

To me there's no post match culpability levelled at officials by our management team so, maybe subconsciously, officials think they have an easy ride with us. 

Rohl uses his post matches to say the result is disappointing but the team are heading in the right direction blah, blah, blah. 

There are other managers out there that would use that opportunity to 'ask questions' of the ref's performance but using language that doesn't result in a fine. 

"PGMOL constantly talk about the shirt sleeve rule so why is that given?" "I'd like someone to explain to me how that's not a high boot on Windass." "These decisions change games and unfortunately we were on the wrong end of them today." "I wonder what the officials will think when they review that game on Monday?" 

Personally, I'd have taken the fine and called the ref out on his positioning and going with the crowd. 

It might be a bit Warnock and Wilder but have you seen the decisions the pigs have been getting this season. 

We don't give officials enough grief when warranted. We don't sow those seeds so that media attention is drawn to them. 

 

[Andyben]

33 minutes ago, Tylluan said:

It might be a bit Warnock and Wilder but have you seen the decisions the pigs have been getting this season. 

Both of whom got that lot promoted to the Premier League...

[JBO]

3 hours ago, mkowl said:

 

The one last week annoyed me more because they seemed to enjoy the jeopardy of the situation. Like when it say a min of 5 minutes injury time and there is a corner at 5.04. They let the corner happen

Why wouldn't they? It's a minimum of 5 minutes. Added time isn't exactly to the minute. It might be 5 and a half minutes but he can't put that on the board 

[Tank_Owl2,0]

Unfortunately I don’t subscribe to either conspiracy or a concerted level of unconscious bias.

I put it down to poor management of the club (when we got relegated from the Prem and over the last 25years) poor reffing, poor process or accountability of the refs and simply we are too nice.

If there was a conspiracy from 89 onwards we wouldn’t have bounced back in 91, wouldn’t have won the LC, wouldn’t have got into Europe, wouldn’t have got to the cup finals in 93, no Euro venue in 96 and I think we would have seen more charges over the tenure of DC.

[Owling_Wolf]

4 minutes ago, Tank_Owl2,0 said:

Unfortunately I don’t subscribe to either conspiracy or a concerted level of unconscious bias.

I put it down to poor management of the club (when we got relegated from the Prem and over the last 25years) poor reffing, poor process or accountability of the refs and simply we are too nice.

If there was a conspiracy from 89 onwards we wouldn’t have bounced back in 91, wouldn’t have won the LC, wouldn’t have got into Europe, wouldn’t have got to the cup finals in 93, no Euro venue in 96 and I think we would have seen more charges over the tenure of DC.

Yeah, you're right.  It's all down to DiCanio.  

[mkowl]

1 hour ago, JBO said:

Why wouldn't they? It's a minimum of 5 minutes. Added time isn't exactly to the minute. It might be 5 and a half minutes but he can't put that on the board 

Yes I get that, but I also think they enjoy the drama of it 

[JBO]

Like letting someone take a long throw on 98 minutes when he's put 6 on the board...

[fOWLmouth]

2 hours ago, Tank_Owl2,0 said:

If there was a conspiracy from 89 onwards we wouldn’t have bounced back in 91, wouldn’t have won the LC, wouldn’t have got into Europe, wouldn’t have got to the cup finals in 93, no Euro venue in 96 and I think we would have seen more charges over the tenure of DC.

I don’t subscribe to a conspiracy, but regardless,weren’t those events when Liverpool fans were still deemed culpable in the mainstream media and other circles?

[Andyben]

It's ramped up in the past decade since Cameron tried to appease the scousers which led to the absolute whitewash of history.

They played at ours a dozen times after the disaster with little or no problem, just a mutual respect in honouring the dead but I dread to think what would happen if we played them now 

Edited September 22 by Andyben

[Tylluan]

34 minutes ago, Andyben said:

They played at ours a dozen times after the disaster with little or no problem, just a mutual respect in honouring the dead but I dread to think what would happen if we played them now 

You'd be guaranteed that Kelly Cates would be covering it. 

Just on the games after the disaster. Away days at Anfield in the early/mid 90s were a bit lairy and plod weren't exactly helpful. Got slapped almost immediately after stepping out of Lime Street station one year with the local constabulary just watching on. Managed to get back into the station then got picked up by BTP for causing a disturbance. Never saw the game. Following season went on a lads coach which ended up with half it's windows missing 

[Reesh]

Just now, Tylluan said:

You'd be guaranteed that Kelly Cates would be covering it. 

Just on the games after the disaster. Away days at Anfield in the early/mid 90s were a bit lairy and plod weren't exactly helpful. Got slapped almost immediately after stepping out of Lime Street station one year with the local constabulary just watching on. Managed to get back into the station then got picked up by BTP for causing a disturbance. Never saw the game. Following season went on a lads coach which ended up with half it's windows missing 

Had our coach windows put through on my first visit there back in 96, just after the Jimmy McGovern Hillsborough drama had aired. 

 

*****.

[Owling_Wolf]

2 hours ago, Reesh said:

Had our coach windows put through on my first visit there back in 96, just after the Jimmy McGovern Hillsborough drama had aired. 

 

*****.

Might not have been related. We had our ICO coach window bricked after the Lg Cup visit there in 1983. It was a Q/f replay under Wilko after 2-2 at ours.  (49,357 at ours; 40,485 theirs.)  The night that we all sang, "We'll be back, we'll be back..." as we were on our way back up to the 1st Division after many years.  Huyton / M57 rings a bell.  Scrote kids in a field next to the motorway chucking bricks.  We ended up with a row of Wednesday coaches lined up on the hard shoulder, all with windows missing: some more than one. Ours was a half housebrick through the window one seat in front of mine: thankfully they'd pulled the curtain right across or it could have been a lot worse. I'll let you imagine how lovely our night journey was over the M62 in January.  Scum.  

The following season we were indeed back there and beat the European Champions 2-0 on their own patch, with a major crowd of us singing, "We said, 'We'll be back', and we are, and we are."  That felt fantastic. Sadly, some of our number discovered why it's nicknamed 'Stanley knife Park'.  Some of ours had been attacked in the shared stand the year before: they waited until 90% of us had gone down the steps at the end and then charged the remaining men, women & children. Cowards.

And all that was before the Hillsborough tragedy. 

[Reesh]

It was definitely related unless they were only kidding about being murdering yorkshire bastards.

[Andyben]

8 minutes ago, Reesh said:

It was definitely related unless they were only kidding about being murdering yorkshire bastards.

Six years before tho...😂 

[Reesh]

1 minute ago, Andyben said:

Six years before tho...😂 

Eh? 

[Tank_Owl2,0]

I’m not saying visits to Everton were never uneventful, or maybe it’s the mists of time, but I don’t recall any out of the ordinary issues compared to visiting the other half of scouseland. Am I misremembering?
It’s a good point re the changing of perspective in the last 15 years, ie since it became clearer that plod and the Govt had covered things up. What seems to be overlooked by them is the club probably had no choice in the matter and that Hillsborough was was chosen to play the semi final by the FA because the alternatives weren’t that great.

Whilst it’s awful what happened to everyone and their families on that day, it was hardly SWFC fans and the club of todays fault.

[Andyben]

7 minutes ago, Reesh said:

Eh? 

He's talking about a game in 1983..

But yeah, 96 definitely was 

Edited September 22 by Andyben

[Reesh]

4 minutes ago, Andyben said:

He's talking about a game in 1983..

But yeah, 96 definitely was 

Ah.....

[Tank_Owl2,0]

I wonder if anyscousers can join the dots to the way SYPs finest behaved during the steelworkers and then miners, accepting some miners weren’t angels.

[mkowl]

16 minutes ago, Tank_Owl2,0 said:

I wonder if anyscousers can join the dots to the way SYPs finest behaved during the steelworkers and then miners, accepting some miners weren’t angels.

Otherwise known as the army that bolstered numbers 

[Owling_Wolf]

19 minutes ago, Andyben said:

He's talking about a game in 1983..

But yeah, 96 definitely was 

Err... yes!  🙄   My point was that they were doing that shit to us back before Hillsborough even happened, so it might not have been related specifically to that. 

(Reesh hadn't mentioned the chant when I posted.)  

[Tylluan]

1 hour ago, Owling_Wolf said:

The following season we were indeed back there and beat the European Champions 2-0 on their own patch, with a major crowd of us singing, "We said, 'We'll be back', and we are, and we are."  That felt fantastic. Sadly, some of our number discovered why it's nicknamed 'Stanley knife Park'.  

I'd just turned 16 a couple of weeks before that game. I remember queuing up to get in and police basically forcing us on to the road while the traffic was still going past. Coming out we got run all over and I ended up the wrong side of Stanley Park.  Luckily I wasn't wearing any colours and just got my head down as I walked the edge of the park. I got on the first coach I could and ended up in Stockbridge. 

Wasn't allowed to go to another away game that season 

[Reesh]

6 minutes ago, Tylluan said:

I'd just turned 16 a couple of weeks before that game. I remember queuing up to get in and police basically forcing us on to the road while the traffic was still going past. Coming out we got run all over and I ended up the wrong side of Stanley Park.  Luckily I wasn't wearing any colours and just got my head down as I walked the edge of the park. I got on the first coach I could and ended up in Stockbridge. 

Wasn't allowed to go to another away game that season 

The two things are related I'm guessing and how long did the PTSD last?

[MAL]

1 hour ago, Owling_Wolf said:

Err... yes!  🙄   My point was that they were doing that shit to us back before Hillsborough the disaster, partially caused by their own fans, even happened, so it might not have been related specifically to that. 

(Reesh hadn't mentioned the chant when I posted.)  

 

[Owling_Wolf]

1 hour ago, MAL said:

 

Thanks for putting that under my name!  🙄