Mark Townsend's brother calling for a full coroner's enquiry

[Tylluan]

With a ground that is synonymous with a tragedy such as Hillsborough, you would think it would be one of the safest grounds in the country to go to and it turns out it really isn't."

“There is a sad lack of a duty of care towards fans."

“I’d like to see an investigation into the failings of whether it's staff, facilities or protocols that they've got, it shouldn't be happening with the amount of money you pay to watch a game of football - you shouldn't be in fear of your life."

“There should be defibrillators to suit the size of the ground that should be available and well marked out."

“It sounds like the staff had no first aid training, it took an off-duty paramedic, an off duty doctor and somebody who had done some first aid training to be the first port of call and that shouldn’t be the case.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly6k92wppno

[Tylluan]

Even if we're cleared by every enquiry called we'll still be hit with the stigma.

We're a sitting duck, in that regard.

But if there's the slightest chance the club were negligent then we're fucked. Remember the EFL and FA work on probabilities, not facts 

Edited October 3 by Tylluan

[mkowl]

1 hour ago, Tylluan said:

Even if we're cleared by every enquiry called we'll still be hit with the stigma.

We're a sitting duck, in that regard.

But if there's the slightest chance the club were negligent then we're fucked. Remember the EFL and FA work on probabilities, not facts 

And supposing there are failings - let's see - there is no defence to compromise safety. That could be someone in the home end just as easy

[Billysboy]

Compo time.

[Owling_Wolf]

32 minutes ago, Billysboy said:

Compo time.

Hopefully from the EFL or whoever else decided that EFL  games should continue, as quoted in the current BBC article. 

[HoylandOwl]

It’s a tragedy no matter which way you look at it, but there wouldn’t be as much outcry if it wasn’t in that end from the media. 
 

[Reesh]

His brother was not at the game and is regurgitating anecdotal evidence from people who "saw" it, I'm guessing most didn't but pretend they did, yes it's going to be raw for him at the minute but let's see what is actually released in terms of factual evidence of events first.

 

[Andyben]

Damage done though.

 

[Hirstys 12th Pint]

Would there be a case to answer ? 

As far as I am aware the is no legal requirement for places to have Defibs in situ.  It would obviously be good practice though. 

There may be issue with regards to speed of action but in this scenario is it best endeavors ?  The successful treatment of Cardiac Arrests are low and this needs to be considered. 

If someone work on behalf of the club as a medical professional had administered the wrong treatment may be another matter. 

[mkowl]

It is interesting about response times because the reality is - even if it was delayed somewhat on the day - it would be quicker than anywhere else.

To witness from yesterday where I spent more time in Wycombe than anyone really should, where I was driving to collect Mrs MK from a supermarket. In the petrol station, a car had hit a wall, apparently as a result of a medical episode of the driver. Fire brigade there but a first responder only just turning up as we left. Some 10-15 minutes post the actual incident. Be good if it was quicker but that is the reality 

[HoylandOwl]

https://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/football/sheffield-wednesday/sheffield-wednesday-release-statement-amid-investigation-into-tragic-death-of-west-brom-fan-4812096

[Reesh]

If the CCTV and documentary evidence is correct and suggests only a 4 minute between a steward being informed and medical attention starting then I can't see the club having an issue.

[Andyben]

Too late

[holmesfield_owl]

2 hours ago, Reesh said:

If the CCTV and documentary evidence is correct and suggests only a 4 minute between a steward being informed and medical attention starting then I can't see the club having an issue.

I'd argue that imo it's a pretty good response time

[Skamp]

Earlier this year, a chap I was talking to at a Men's Club I run suddenly started shaking and dropped to the floor. 

As I dialled 999 another chap started to give CPR.

What seemed like forever, the ambulance arrived and he was saved. 

The CPR being the thing to get him back from the dead before the paramedics took over.

Turns out a bloodclot had entered his heart causing an attack.

As I say, felt like hours but was probably minutes. Never thought to get a stopwatch out at the time.

I suppose what I'm saying is that it seems longer than it really is at the time and this is when the emotions, as well as the adrenaline, are running high.

We now have a defibrillator at the building. Lessons learned and all that.   We had it installed outside for other members of the community to use if required. Hopefully it'll sit there gathering dust.

 

Ps. Reading up on this, 4 minutes is the maximum distance a defibrillator should be away from someone needing one.

I've since written to our H&S team at work to increase the one we have to three - one on each floor.

Have a look around your own workplace and ask, what would we do in an emergency? Where's the nearest defibrillator? Who has the code if at work? Have you been trained how to use one? (The machine actually 'talks' you through how to use it, but training gives you asdurance)

Sorry about this long, serious post but fo you know what? It's a serious subject.

 

 

 

[owl71]

Apparently survival chances increase by 50-70% if a defibrillator is used within five minutes of collapse.  It appears that was the case last weekend.

[Harry Lime]

Certainly saved a mate of mines life, he was very lucky. He was playing golf and collapsed on the 10th tee which just so happens to be adjacent to the clubhouse. Bloke walking past ran in and got the defibrillator did what he had to do and then they got him away in an ambulance.

The bloke walking past had seen Eriksen (IIRC) collapse a few weeks before. He'd done the course but it was some time ago so he'd book himself on a refresher which he'd done just the week before the event. 

Four or five holes either way from the 10th? Could have been a completely different story.

He's like a racing snake and never smoked, can happen to anyone.

[M42Owl]

On 04/10/2024 at 11:38, Hirstys 12th Pint said:

Would there be a case to answer ? 

As far as I am aware the is no legal requirement for places to have Defibs in situ.  It would obviously be good practice though. 

There may be issue with regards to speed of action but in this scenario is it best endeavors ?  The successful treatment of Cardiac Arrests are low and this needs to be considered. 

If someone work on behalf of the club as a medical professional had administered the wrong treatment may be another matter. 

I think it’s “reasonable endeavours”. “Best” would imply must more - probably a minimum of 1 defibrillator per stand, and someone trained to use it.

[HoylandOwl]

On 06/10/2024 at 15:56, Skamp said:

Earlier this year, a chap I was talking to at a Men's Club I run suddenly started shaking and dropped to the floor. 

As I dialled 999 another chap started to give CPR.

What seemed like forever, the ambulance arrived and he was saved. 

The CPR being the thing to get him back from the dead before the paramedics took over.

Turns out a bloodclot had entered his heart causing an attack.

As I say, felt like hours but was probably minutes. Never thought to get a stopwatch out at the time.

I suppose what I'm saying is that it seems longer than it really is at the time and this is when the emotions, as well as the adrenaline, are running high.

We now have a defibrillator at the building. Lessons learned and all that.   We had it installed outside for other members of the community to use if required. Hopefully it'll sit there gathering dust.

 

Ps. Reading up on this, 4 minutes is the maximum distance a defibrillator should be away from someone needing one.

I've since written to our H&S team at work to increase the one we have to three - one on each floor.

Have a look around your own workplace and ask, what would we do in an emergency? Where's the nearest defibrillator? Who has the code if at work? Have you been trained how to use one? (The machine actually 'talks' you through how to use it, but training gives you asdurance)

Sorry about this long, serious post but fo you know what? It's a serious subject.

 

 

 

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[Andyben]

On 06/10/2024 at 15:56, Skamp said:

Earlier this year, a chap I was talking to at a Men's Club I run suddenly started shaking and dropped to the floor. 

As I dialled 999 another chap started to give CPR.

What seemed like forever, the ambulance arrived and he was saved. 

The CPR being the thing to get him back from the dead before the paramedics took over.

Turns out a bloodclot had entered his heart causing an attack.

As I say, felt like hours but was probably minutes. Never thought to get a stopwatch out at the time.

I suppose what I'm saying is that it seems longer than it really is at the time and this is when the emotions, as well as the adrenaline, are running high.

We now have a defibrillator at the building. Lessons learned and all that.   We had it installed outside for other members of the community to use if required. Hopefully it'll sit there gathering dust.

 

Ps. Reading up on this, 4 minutes is the maximum distance a defibrillator should be away from someone needing one.

I've since written to our H&S team at work to increase the one we have to three - one on each floor.

Have a look around your own workplace and ask, what would we do in an emergency? Where's the nearest defibrillator? Who has the code if at work? Have you been trained how to use one? (The machine actually 'talks' you through how to use it, but training gives you asdurance)

Sorry about this long, serious post but fo you know what? It's a serious subject.

 

 

 

I'm still waiting for the punchline - got to say it's not one of Frank Carson's better jokes

[Otto_Man]

6 minutes ago, Andyben said:

I'm still waiting for the punchline - got to say it's not one of Frank Carson's better jokes

You're thinking of Jimmy Cricket 

[Billysboy]

2 hours ago, Andyben said:

I'm still waiting for the punchline - got to say it's not one of Frank Carson's better jokes

"Its the way I tell em"

[Reesh]

6 hours ago, Andyben said:

I'm still waiting for the punchline - got to say it's not one of Frank Carson's better jokes

It was Tommy Cooper.

[HoylandOwl]

https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2024-10-14/man-pleads-guilty-over-post-trolling-west-brom-supporters-death

[Billysboy]

Just looks the weak, pathetic twat he seems.

[mkowl]

I mean he looks like an average guy who should know better.

It is far too easy on social media to post and not really think before you do. And the lack of an edit facility but folk can screenshot. 

I mean me and Reesh shared private jokes relating to Baldock because we both have a pretty gross sense of humour - for me it's a way with dealing with shite in life - but we know it was not suitable for any public utterance so you keep it to yourself. 

[mkowl]

3 minutes ago, Billysboy said:

Just looks the weak, pathetic twat he seems.

He looks remarkably normal for me, and I am someone who agrees with the likes of Ricky Gervais. Each person has different levels when it comes to humour, what you find offensive or not. But given the modern way is to find offense on behalf of others you have to be conservative on what you share publicly and indeed trust the other person if you share stuff privately. 

 

[Billysboy]

I do think

1 minute ago, mkowl said:

He looks remarkably normal for me, and I am someone who agrees with the likes of Ricky Gervais. Each person has different levels when it comes to humour, what you find offensive or not. But given the modern way is to find offense on behalf of others you have to be conservative on what you share publicly and indeed trust the other person if you share stuff privately. 

 

I do think sometimes a person who most would say comes across as a really pleasant and decent individual can have vile persona when they take to social media, somehow out of control.

[Reesh]

21 minutes ago, mkowl said:

I mean he looks like an average guy who should know better.

It is far too easy on social media to post and not really think before you do. And the lack of an edit facility but folk can screenshot. 

I mean me and Reesh shared private jokes relating to Baldock because we both have a pretty gross sense of humour - for me it's a way with dealing with shite in life - but we know it was not suitable for any public utterance so you keep it to yourself. 

I'm a fucking coppers dream if I ever lost my phone, some of the stuff shared between mates would cause offence but fuck me it is only words....

[mkowl]

15 minutes ago, Reesh said:

I'm a fucking coppers dream if I ever lost my phone, some of the stuff shared between mates would cause offence but fuck me it is only words....

But you only share with mates who you know share a similar tolerance level.

I mean some people are probably offended that we may come up with the joke in the first place. "How could you even think it a bloke has died" 

My retort is simply that humour is my default mode when I have faced life's shit. Jeez I missed my Dad dying by about 5 minutes because on that day we got delayed leaving here because there were 2 ambulances blocking our road, I nearly got into a fight in the Northern General car park as I grabbed the last spot, we then struggled to put ruddy PPE on to visit him. 

You know if I didn't see the ruddy humour that could have destroyed me. 

I accept I have a warped sense of humour, others act edgy as this chap. The crux is you just don't share your left field humour in the public domain these days or you face the consequences of the righteous pointing it out 

 

[Andyben]

40 minutes ago, Reesh said:

I'm a fucking coppers dream if I ever lost my phone, some of the stuff shared between mates would cause offence but fuck me it is only words....

Blocked 

[Reesh]

1 minute ago, Andyben said:

Blocked 

Most of it is from you.....

[Andyben]

Just now, Reesh said:

Most of it is from you.....

Exactly...

[mkowl]

14 minutes ago, Andyben said:

Exactly...

I have never seen what actually gets you banned from X 

[Reesh]

3 minutes ago, mkowl said:

I have never seen what actually gets you banned from X 

Calling people sugartits 

[Andyben]

34 minutes ago, mkowl said:

I have never seen what actually gets you banned from X 

It was terrible before Musk took over.

I remember once I was in hospital for an operation, woke up and when I check a day later I'd had my twitter account closed.

So I opened another and saw that some person who I'd never, ever interacted with was bragging how he'd got some more pro- brexit accounts closed.

I got that account back when I appealed once Elon took over but since then  hardly bother anymore 

Edited 2 hours ago by Andyben

[mkowl]

4 minutes ago, Andyben said:

It was terrible before Musk took over.

I remember once I was in hospital for an operation, woke up and when I check a day later I'd had my twitter account closed.

So I opened another and saw that some person who I'd never, ever interacted with was bragging how he'd got some more pro- brexit accounts closed.

I got that account back when I appealed once Elon took over but since then  hardly bother anymore 

See people like that should be retro banned by Musk because they were trying to subvert free speech. Best thing about Musk was that it stopped the one sided debates on there where the smug fbpe types only had the intellectual capacity to call you gammon if you did not post undying love for Ursula WTF whatever she was called 

 

[Andyben]

I just wondered how empty his life must be to get pleasure from that.

Living proof of how the Stasi / Nazis thrived through the grateful assistance of regular people. Typical lefties 

[mkowl]

10 minutes ago, Andyben said:

I just wondered how empty his life must be to get pleasure from that.

Living proof of how the Stasi / Nazis thrived through the grateful assistance of regular people. Typical lefties 

When it comes to the chap per the link it's the fact some folk get a perverse pleasure that the bloke lost his job as a result. 

I am not defending what he said in any way, but the consequences of your actions these days seems disproportionate. 

And I always think those reacting with "he deserves it" fail to appreciate that one fail or fuck up by them could mean the same applies to them. Will they see it as fair then ? 

 

 

[Otto_Man]

Freedom of speech doesn't free you from the consequences of what you choose to say.

Don't know the bloke, but his response when he was asked if he had anything to say to the victims family said a lot to me...

[mkowl]

2 minutes ago, Otto_Man said:

Freedom of speech doesn't free you from the consequences of what you choose to say.

Don't know the bloke, but his response when he was asked if he had anything to say to the victims family said a lot to me...

I don't disagree with that but who determines what the consequences are. 

You could say society as a whole, fuelled by media maybe, dictates where the line is drawn.

But sometimes you have to step back and think is being a bit of a twat online enough to warrant losing your job. 

Perhaps people think that should be the case. Like when they say take away someone's pension. What if you worked 40 years and perhaps your criminality or whatever was for the last 3 years of said career, you get nothing ? 

 

[Otto_Man]

29 minutes ago, mkowl said:

I don't disagree with that but who determines what the consequences are. 

You could say society as a whole, fuelled by media maybe, dictates where the line is drawn.

But sometimes you have to step back and think is being a bit of a twat online enough to warrant losing your job. 

Perhaps people think that should be the case. Like when they say take away someone's pension. What if you worked 40 years and perhaps your criminality or whatever was for the last 3 years of said career, you get nothing ? 

 

The law courts do and will, our justice system works on the basis of innocent until proven guilty, he could have pleaded not guilty and gone to trial, he didn't.

He's a grown man, who's clearly fairly engaged online so it seems reasonable to assume he would have seen what happened to them two blokes mocking the Sunderland fans with the picture of that young lad who passed away.

The court of public opinion is hardly a new thing is it? 

 

[Tank_Owl2,0]

It’s a fair point, even if you don’t agree with what’s happened, ie the mocking of the poor kid that was a Sunderland fan and the racism towards the Cov player are recent and reasonably high profile, locally anyway. So, you could hardly say there’s no form for the club and authorities identifying people and sanctioning them when they have been antisocial. In other words the guy can hardly be surprised he was dealt with as he has.

i wonder if any other clubs have had anything like these kinds of problems?

[Hirstys 12th Pint]

Stupid comments for him to put in the public domain.  Earlier think he had put condolences in a post to the family. 

Just put those comments into the mouth of someone like Frankie Boyle or Jimmy Carr at one of their gigs for example.  Would be considered sick humour.  Been to one of Frankies shows and comes out with much worse hurty words.